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Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
5/31/2024 9:45 pm
I can tell Frank is in sales

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68 - League Admin
6/01/2024 12:05 am
Waitwut wrote:
I can tell Frank is in sales


I looked at the Sun Valley Scorchers out of curiosity and they would be hard pressed to score points if you could actually call the plays!!!!

I can't imagine they average more then 10 points a game but they do have a few nice linebackers!
Last edited at 6/01/2024 12:06 am

Re: May 2024 Update

By raymattison21
6/01/2024 10:49 pm
Mcbolt55 wrote:
I can buy into this multiple roll score. I thought ball carry was supposed to be similar “modifier” for adjusting run speed with the ball. Route run should be the same, and countered by the coverage skills of the defender. Much like the bump and run scores and catching.

The biggest problem with the “physics” rolls or player speed is that the lighter player with more speed will currently dominate without repercussion for being undersized. If force truly matches mass * acceleration, then does our acc skill factor in? Strength should be part of a force calculation as well, as well as the particular type of contact, be it blocking or tackling. I also think height should matter more in contesting passes, or maybe incorporate a “jumping” skill.

It shouldn’t be about just making every player as fast as possible, there should be an impactful sacrifice somewhere. I don’t think the draft should be loaded with quality players, busts should still happen, but players should be created with certain physical mins and max that reflect reality.


Route and cover only come in to play when the receiver makes a cut. B&R does modify the speed depending who wins the roll.
Acceleration only really comes in to play within 1.5 yards.. maybe 3-5 if it’s really low and speed is very high.
Catching and courage act like jumping.
Strength is tied to weight but needs to be used with the body mass index (weight/height) instead.
Its the reason pro OTs are taller than Gs and rbs are stockier than WRs.
Durability is tied to this irl. Here injures happen due to weight and fatigue rates but a player’s density is never factored here ever.
Its the core flaw causing alot of these loop holes to exploit the code.
I was able to get a QB with 8200 pass yards and 88 tds and a wr having 5400 receiving yards and 60 tds in one regular season. This was using only three different plays and is the main reason the current code is like it is today.
Until how speed, strength and fatigue rates are modified by a players weight everything is a bandaid. And crafty users will find a way around the new code tweaks.
The solution is use weight/height instead of weight alone

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68 - League Admin
6/01/2024 11:51 pm
Amazing stats so I wanted to see for myself and it happened 33 seasons ago in MFN-1 using what version? I'm assuming version 4.2 since 2 QBs had significant numbers back when we had to use a 2 QB system.

To be fair not much has changed, I just won the Title in the NCAA league which uses version 4.5



And Smirt211 is putting up insane numbers in the XFL using version 4.6 but we use 10-12 offensive plays not the limited 3.



I appreciate the knowledge Ray but your post kinda implies you recently produced those numbers when in fact it happen about 7 years ago.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Waitwut
6/02/2024 8:10 am
The context is great though with relation to time and issues. I think this clearly shows the foundational aspects controlling game play have long been in need of attention. We are pulling samples for seven real life years ago to current for feedback. Is anyone listening though?

This is the disheartening part, realizing you’ve had a conversation with a wall. My speculative mind leads me to believe there is a reason you’ve just talked to a wall and the easy answer is “it hasn’t been fixed because of everything else that would break”. I want to believe there are detailed notes and understanding of the underlying programming in addition to an idea of how to fix. Something shareable with the community preferably since there is no real need to act as the man behind the curtain.

JDB - is anything ray or pern implied anbout your coding true? Because I’ve never seen you post such detailed descriptions of your programming, but they seem to have the inside track of the formulas and have implied that information was gathered from you. Are you selectively giving more info to some people? If so, why and how can we all become endowed with this level of detail?
Last edited at 6/02/2024 8:11 am

Re: May 2024 Update

By ArmoredGiraffe
6/02/2024 10:40 am
Waitwut wrote:
The context is great though with relation to time and issues. I think this clearly shows the foundational aspects controlling game play have long been in need of attention. We are pulling samples for seven real life years ago to current for feedback. Is anyone listening though?

This is the disheartening part, realizing you’ve had a conversation with a wall. My speculative mind leads me to believe there is a reason you’ve just talked to a wall and the easy answer is “it hasn’t been fixed because of everything else that would break”. I want to believe there are detailed notes and understanding of the underlying programming in addition to an idea of how to fix. Something shareable with the community preferably since there is no real need to act as the man behind the curtain.

JDB - is anything ray or pern implied anbout your coding true? Because I’ve never seen you post such detailed descriptions of your programming, but they seem to have the inside track of the formulas and have implied that information was gathered from you. Are you selectively giving more info to some people? If so, why and how can we all become endowed with this level of detail?


A lot of what people say is taken directly from posts JDB made in the older numbered leagues when he was more active on the forums. Some of the posts are deleted now since leagues have closed but IIRC there are still posts from JDB answering questions in those leagues as well.

The posts are from years ago when development was more active it seems. No shade to JDB, just pointing out

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68 - League Admin
6/02/2024 10:48 am
Waitwut wrote:
The context is great though with relation to time and issues. I think this clearly shows the foundational aspects controlling game play have long been in need of attention. We are pulling samples for seven real life years ago to current for feedback. Is anyone listening though?

This is the disheartening part, realizing you’ve had a conversation with a wall. My speculative mind leads me to believe there is a reason you’ve just talked to a wall and the easy answer is “it hasn’t been fixed because of everything else that would break”. I want to believe there are detailed notes and understanding of the underlying programming in addition to an idea of how to fix. Something shareable with the community preferably since there is no real need to act as the man behind the curtain.

JDB - is anything ray or pern implied anbout your coding true? Because I’ve never seen you post such detailed descriptions of your programming, but they seem to have the inside track of the formulas and have implied that information was gathered from you. Are you selectively giving more info to some people? If so, why and how can we all become endowed with this level of detail?


The point is that with enough time under the same version, you will always get to the above numbers. It's a process of trail and error to find the best path to achieve dominat numbers. It's been the case since version 4.1.

Take version 4.6...it was a radical swing from 4.5 and reaching 3,000 yards passing was almost impossible but that was only because what worked in 4.5 no longer worked anymore.

So a bunch of owners bailed on passing and leaned into the running game and we saw a bunch of 2000 yard rushers. But the top guys dug in and went to work and slowly over the next 2 years all the best plays using the best personal were found and now 5000 yards passing is reached by multiple QBs every season while the higher tide has raised all owners passing numbers.

If/when we ever switch to version 4.7, some owners will announce the Sim is fixed or it's unplayable and the top guys will goto work!!!

It's a process...always been a process but where once we never used a version for over a year with changes and updates happening every 6 months and we had an active "bleeding beta" league where it was being tweaked weekly....now version 4.5 was around 3 years and now 4.6 is over 2 years in use while MFN-1 is dead.

MFN needs change every 9 months or you get the above passing numbers. The longer a version exist, the more extreme the results become.

Re: May 2024 Update

By raymattison21
6/02/2024 9:13 pm
Great we agree then. Hours and hours of code tweaks over the past years has resulted in the fundamental flaw being exposed each time.

But you’re missing the point. It’s due to speed calculation and it ruins the game. Use density not weight. Don’t over complicate this.

Re: May 2024 Update

By Cjfred68 - League Admin
6/02/2024 10:12 pm
raymattison21 wrote:
Great we agree then. Hours and hours of code tweaks over the past years has resulted in the fundamental flaw being exposed each time.

But you’re missing the point. It’s due to speed calculation and it ruins the game. Use density not weight. Don’t over complicate this.


I agree the code needs to be fixed but there hasn't been any code tweaks in over 2 years except the horrible (remove 2 plays) quick fix he did instead of addressing the core issue.

He has been designing the new UI for at least 18 months and with MFN-1 dead he hasn't made any changes.

My point remains the same...if he completely fixes speed and everything works great out of the box....owners will find the weak points and attack. It's how simulation code works...always...the longer it exist in a static form, the better owners will figure it out.
Last edited at 6/02/2024 10:13 pm

Re: May 2024 Update

By Pernbronze
6/02/2024 11:04 pm
Cjfred68 wrote:
raymattison21 wrote:
Great we agree then. Hours and hours of code tweaks over the past years has resulted in the fundamental flaw being exposed each time.

But you’re missing the point. It’s due to speed calculation and it ruins the game. Use density not weight. Don’t over complicate this.


I agree the code needs to be fixed but there hasn't been any code tweaks in over 2 years except the horrible (remove 2 plays) quick fix he did instead of addressing the core issue.

He has been designing the new UI for at least 18 months and with MFN-1 dead he hasn't made any changes.

My point remains the same...if he completely fixes speed and everything works great out of the box....owners will find the weak points and attack. It's how simulation code works...always...the longer it exist in a static form, the better owners will figure it out.


That's how you improve a game, just fix the weak points as the users find them. At least it'll be new weak points if nothing else.